Activity

UTAK touch point & panel updates - December 02 VIEW RECORDING - 24 mins (No highlights): https://fathom.video/share/y2s-snx_1Fpj3DgZxRgjaFATVsbsRzBA --- 0:00 - Erin Kirby (Orion Laboratories | Baton Rouge LA) Good morning, how are you? Other than freezing cold, I'm doing great. 0:04 - Andrew Hartmann (UTAK Laboratories) It's like 23 and icy outside, so I'm thankful I don't have to work from home, or I work from home, but my wife is actually just leaving for work now, so I'm happy for me, unfortunate for her. That's fair, that's fair. 0:18 - Erin Kirby (Orion Laboratories | Baton Rouge LA) I think it's like 40 degrees here, 45 something, but everyone's freezing and it's a little wild to make it. 0:25 - Andrew Hartmann (UTAK Laboratories) That's cold for there though, right? Yeah, it is. It's cold for here. It's all relative, you know, I was talking to somebody else last week, and they mentioned it was really cold, and he was in the San Diego area, and I was like, how cold is it? He's like, oh, it's like 65 today. I was like, I would love that. Yep. 0:45 - Erin Kirby (Orion Laboratories | Baton Rouge LA) I have all these nice jackets from when I lived in Maryland, and I got to take one out today, and I was like, I might get like 12 more uses out of this. 0:58 - Andrew Hartmann (UTAK Laboratories) Did you have a good holiday week? I did. How about you? 1:02 - Erin Kirby (Orion Laboratories | Baton Rouge LA) It was great. 1:03 - Andrew Hartmann (UTAK Laboratories) Yeah, I do have an expiration question that I think is most important, which is my pecan pie is dated 12-1. It's now 12-2. Is it safe? Yeah, yeah. I was like, I still have two slices left and I... Yeah, I mean, pecan pie should be good for like five days, right? Something like that. I was thinking I'd run it by our quality team here at UTAK and see what they say, if they'll give me an EXP extension or not. Nice. How are things going in the lab? You said you had some new team members coming on? Yes, yeah. 1:40 - Erin Kirby (Orion Laboratories | Baton Rouge LA) We're growing and I'm trying to move on to bigger projects. So, trying to replace me, which takes a few people. I've seen similar at UTAK. 1:53 - Andrew Hartmann (UTAK Laboratories) They put me in an apartment and usually when they move me, they put two people in my place. And I'm like, hey guys, come on. capable! ... Yeah, so, 2:01 - Erin Kirby (Orion Laboratories | Baton Rouge LA) I guess this means I can handle more responsibility, but... 2:06 - Andrew Hartmann (UTAK Laboratories) I mean, you're working on oral fluid now as well as the urine? Yeah, yeah. 2:12 - Erin Kirby (Orion Laboratories | Baton Rouge LA) I ran into some method issues last week, and so I've been trying to play catch-up on tuning. So I had an instrument go down. So I've trained people, and then I had an instrument go down on my last run of my validation. So I had to start over with a new instrument. So it's just, it's been eventful. It's been eventful. It's never easy, but it's worth it in the end. 2:40 - Andrew Hartmann (UTAK Laboratories) It's just, it's never easy to get there. 2:43 - Erin Kirby (Orion Laboratories | Baton Rouge LA) I'm not, I'm not one to miss deadlines, but I think I'm going to be two weeks outside of the deadline that I had set for myself. I'm not, I'm not happy about it, but that's all right. 2:55 - Andrew Hartmann (UTAK Laboratories) We'll get there. You know, I'm one of those under-promise, over-deliverers. So Like, if I think something's going to take me two weeks, I say it's going to take me a month, and then when I deliver it in two weeks, I feel great. But if something happens and it is a month, it's like, well, I told you. Yeah, that's definitely the way to do it, for sure. 3:17 - Erin Kirby (Orion Laboratories | Baton Rouge LA) So our menu has expanded. I'm still waiting to hear about what additional psych drugs they want to add. But I think I've got a solid handle on just about everything. It's just adding a few more items in, I hope. So I set the menu solid, and then they did a tour of this facility they're adding on, and they said, oh, we want oral psych fluid, oral fluid and psych. You know what I mean. And so my understanding meant that that meant that they wanted more expansive menu than perhaps what I had put together, but I still haven't gotten anything. So I think we've... So probably just need to move forward. You know, menus constantly change and evolve. 4:09 - Andrew Hartmann (UTAK Laboratories) And what we see a lot of people doing is, you know, buy the big panel, get everything that you think you need in there, and then as you, like, add new drugs, you know, if they come back and say, hey, here's 10 more drugs we want, we can make you another QC that just has those 10 drugs that you run in parallel. And then the next time you reorder, you know, you update that bulk panel to add in, you know, whatever those other drugs are that they added, you remove anything that you're no longer testing for. We see a lot of that happen with these big panels, because they don't tend to stay stagnant, you know, very few of these big panels, every time a customer orders it, is it staying the same? You know, it's always change the concentration of this drug, this one we want, you know, to add, we're taking this one out, nobody's testing this anymore, those types of things. So, it's really more of a, you know, evolving product than, like I It's thing, which is the great thing about a custom. As your panel needs change, those can change. Whether you make those extra drugs in-house until you reorder or you have us make another second product, those are kind of the way we see people with these larger panels, typically handling that evolving need. Okay, cool. 5:21 - Erin Kirby (Orion Laboratories | Baton Rouge LA) So I think the only other update is my lab director has asked that we have a different lot for QC and calibrators. Okay. So I know that's going to affect the price quite a bit. That can definitely. 5:41 - Andrew Hartmann (UTAK Laboratories) Do you have your updated drug panel available? I do. 5:47 - Erin Kirby (Orion Laboratories | Baton Rouge LA) Sorry, I have a stand-up desk, or not a stand-up desk. I have a desk that does not stand up, but I am standing. I was kind of wondering. 5:56 - Andrew Hartmann (UTAK Laboratories) I have a stand-up desk and a treadmill and I've tried to do... There's some meetings on the treadmill, and I'm only moving mildly, but the more that I talk, the more out of breath I get, and I start panting, and I'm like, no treadmill during the meetings. That's fair. I used to have a stand-up desk, and I loved it. 6:15 - Erin Kirby (Orion Laboratories | Baton Rouge LA) So I've got a lap bench, and it's about eight inches too low for me. So it's just low enough to hurt my wrists. Oh. 6:27 - Andrew Hartmann (UTAK Laboratories) You know, I think I'm starting to get some of the early signs of carpal tunnels. Like, I get, like, the grip problems, and, you know, the downsides to being a keyboard warrior. My dad was a contractor, and he told me that, you know, he made life really hard on me when I would help him as a kid, because he didn't want me to get into contracting and have my body get hurt. And I'm like, Dad, my hands are shot now because of you. Yeah. 6:50 - Erin Kirby (Orion Laboratories | Baton Rouge LA) I can see that. I can see that for sure. 6:57 - Andrew Hartmann (UTAK Laboratories) For the different lots of QC. Are you, like, 100% certain that it's got to be separate, or would you like to see kind of two options, one as the same and one as separate, just to see that pricing difference? Can we see one of each? Yeah. 7:24 - Erin Kirby (Orion Laboratories | Baton Rouge LA) Make sure I don't have anything on my list that's a no. 7:29 - Andrew Hartmann (UTAK Laboratories) Any changes to the two volume options we quoted? Are those still looking about right? Let me share screen. Ooh. 7:40 - Erin Kirby (Orion Laboratories | Baton Rouge LA) Let me join on my computer. I've got you on my phone so I don't have the camera on my computer. Join. Join. That's the right. Okay. I can see you now. Perfect. 8:06 - Andrew Hartmann (UTAK Laboratories) Can you see the quote? Yes. So, we'd originally quoted as a .5 ml fill size, 36 in a pack, and then a 3-pack and an 8-pack option. Does that still seem ballpark about what you're looking? Okay. Yes. Okay. I think we were at, how many drugs here? That's quite a bit. 108 analytes. Are we still kind of in that same ballpark too? Let's see. 8:36 - Erin Kirby (Orion Laboratories | Baton Rouge LA) We're at 112-ish. Okay. I think it's 112. I need to make sure I'm not, I have anything in here that's not supposed to be on there. But I think that's right. 8:54 - Andrew Hartmann (UTAK Laboratories) Perfect. Yeah. If I could just get that updated drug list, I'll get it over to our team. Alright. It will probably take a little bit of time to source second lots. Just to kind of prep you for the most likely outcome, I'm assuming some of these drugs we might not be able to find separate lots for, so if that's the case, they'll specifically call out which drugs that, you know, we don't have two lots for, but they'll always try their best to find two lots, just sometimes availability from vendors. That's fair. We'll do two options. We'll do one where we use the same lot, which will, you know, be a lower price, and then we'll do another one where we try to do separate lots, and we'll see how that price is out at. 9:40 - Erin Kirby (Orion Laboratories | Baton Rouge LA) Okay. Do you also do internal standards? Technically, yes. 9:47 - Andrew Hartmann (UTAK Laboratories) I will caution you, they do seem to be extremely expensive, and we don't have any stability data. So we don't make any stability guarantees. Okay. Totally happy to quote it for you. I just, I've seen in the past, Like, they, for whatever reason, I think it's the deuterated standards are just really pricey, but they're usually, like, significantly more expensive than the QCs. I think one guy who was doing a panel was, like, a 20-drug panel, you know, and it was a couple thousand bucks for the QC, and then the standard, the internal standard was, like, 100,000. You know, it's, like, a huge difference between them, but happy to price it out if you'd like to see it. It's just kind of no going into it. We're not going to have any stability data, so there'll be kind of no guarantee on that product, and it likely will be a, you know, significant cost just because of the cost of the drugs. Okay. Gotcha. Gotcha. 10:41 - Erin Kirby (Orion Laboratories | Baton Rouge LA) I think we talked, I talked to my lab director about limiting the number of drugs that we would be doing for internal standards anyway, so it's probably, I think that we can reasonably do it in-house. And because it's not something that's volume-specific, I can trust somebody. I can trust somebody else to manage that instead of it being me. 11:05 - Andrew Hartmann (UTAK Laboratories) You know, always happy to sell you more products. Just also want to make sure I'm looking out for your best interest. I appreciate that, for sure. I dropped the menu into our chat. 11:21 - Erin Kirby (Orion Laboratories | Baton Rouge LA) So it's there for you. I think I have the same THC listed three times. So you can ignore two of those. 11:33 - Andrew Hartmann (UTAK Laboratories) It looks like all I'm seeing here is the LOD. Do you have the specific concentrations per level available? Oh, yeah. 11:42 - Erin Kirby (Orion Laboratories | Baton Rouge LA) Yep. 11:43 - Andrew Hartmann (UTAK Laboratories) If possible to email it, it's difficult to pull it out of chat. That's fair. 11:52 - Erin Kirby (Orion Laboratories | Baton Rouge LA) I'm kind of playing with the cutoff levels right now. Is it okay if it changes a little bit or does it have It be, like, for instance, it might be 10 or 15. 12:06 - Andrew Hartmann (UTAK Laboratories) I think for something this comprehensive, it's going to be better for us to hold off until we have that. It's just to give you some insight, like, our team is going to take, and, like, they're going to want to see each of these concentrations of, like, what they want, because in order for us to properly price it, they actually have to, like, behind the scenes go through the full design process. So if we take, like, six MAM, for instance, you know, how much of the drug are we going to have to use to hit 15? How much of it are we going to have to use 30? So if that 30 changes to a 45, then they've got to go back and rerun all the calculations for each of them. You know, I'd say this is a smaller, like, 10-drug panel. I don't really mind throwing our coding team under the bus. But I know, like, something like this to update this quote is pretty much going to take somebody a full day, if not more. So, like, would just, you know, for their sanity, I would hate to... Okay. 14:00 - Erin Kirby (Orion Laboratories | Baton Rouge LA) We need 10, so there have been a few people kind enough in our lab that don't take anything and have supplied some drug-free spit for me. 14:13 - Andrew Hartmann (UTAK Laboratories) I know I talked to the folks at Golden West at a trade show, and I was asking them how they get it, and they're like, we literally have a bottle at our desk while we work all day, we just sit there and spit in the bottle. And I was like, that sounds miserable, but also, I think for me, I would prefer a synthetic, just because working with, like, real humans, I don't know what the problem is. Urine, blood, I'm fine with. The idea of, like, somebody else's spit being right in front of me, I just, I get grossed out by that. It's so slimy. 14:46 - Erin Kirby (Orion Laboratories | Baton Rouge LA) I think it's the slimy part. Like, and there's, I don't know, more bacteria, I think, maybe. I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. 14:59 - Andrew Hartmann (UTAK Laboratories) This… This is why I could never be a dentist. Yeah, the urine smell in our facility has, like, kind of that locker room smell, and, like, I'm used to that from, like, high school football, all that's great. The blood, it's not terrible, you know, if it was coming out of a body, like even a paper cut, I'd be having a, you know, a heart attack. But, like, once it's in the bottle, totally fine. I don't think I could handle a bottle of spit being placed on my desk. 15:25 - Erin Kirby (Orion Laboratories | Baton Rouge LA) No, no one's been really happy about collecting the spit for me, but they've done it, so I am very grateful. 15:33 - Andrew Hartmann (UTAK Laboratories) You might try immunalysis, I think. I don't know if it's just a buffer or if they have a blank oral fluid, but they do a lot of oral fluid kits and, like, oral fluid testing stuff. They might have their own kind of, like, synthetic, again, oral fluid. Who is it? Orashure, I believe, has discontinued their oral fluid. Okay. But I know in the past, we had a lot of customers. Sending us the AuraSure, like, oral fluid, and then we would spike, you know, their QCs into that matrix. So those would be kind of two vendors you might also check out if you're looking for additional samples. 16:12 - Erin Kirby (Orion Laboratories | Baton Rouge LA) I talked to Golden West, and they were like, well, we'll have to get fresh collections. And he said, you just don't want me to even quote you the price on it. It's so expensive. 16:26 - Andrew Hartmann (UTAK Laboratories) That is kind of the feedback they gave me as well. But, you know, sometimes you got to do what you got to do in order to get the validations. But, yeah, if you can get it from your team, that's probably the best value and just buy them something mouthwatering, set it on their desk so they just salivate over it. Like, get them a nice brownie or an ice cream. Yeah, there you go. Awesome. Cool. 16:52 - Erin Kirby (Orion Laboratories | Baton Rouge LA) Well, once I get the level squared away, I will shoot you that over in an email. Perfect. 17:03 - Andrew Hartmann (UTAK Laboratories) And if I don't hear from you, I'll follow up with you every now and again. My team just makes me do that. So if it ever gets annoying, just tell me, like, hey, give me a couple of weeks so that I could tell my boss, like, hey, this is why I'm not following up. Otherwise, they make me touch base with you every two weeks or so and tell them what's going on. 17:18 - Erin Kirby (Orion Laboratories | Baton Rouge LA) I do have a question while we're on the phone. So looking at the quote, the quote you gave me was for urine. But if we wanted to do oral fluid as well, is it because it would be less like standards that would have to be popped open? You know what I mean? Like, is there a discount that comes with that? How does that look when we add in a different fluid, but we keep all the levels the same? You know, there's no way for me to ballpark it. 17:51 - Andrew Hartmann (UTAK Laboratories) It's got to go through, you know, that quoting process. But if you if we quote them both at the same time and you kind of If to purchase both at the same time, I can almost certainly work out, you know, some sort of like volume by discount of, you know, say like 10% off of each one, something in that ballpark, I think I could reasonably convince our team, you know, if you're buying both options, you know, as like a package deal type thing. ACTION ITEM: Email Andrew updated urine + oral fluid panel specs: analytes, fill/pack, total vials, per-level concs; then Andrew quotes 2 urine options + oral fluid - WATCH: https://fathom.video/share/y2s-snx_1Fpj3DgZxRgjaFATVsbsRzBA?timestamp=1091.9999 So I think there is something we can work out there. So if you can get me over, you know, the specs for the oral fluid as well, so fill size, total volume, and concentrations, I'll work up a quote on that. And then, you know, if both are a go, right before you order it, we can send it back into our quoting team and have them apply a discount of some sort. Okay, and it's still the 0.5 mils, is that right? That is what we quoted it at, but you can, this is a custom product, so you're not tied to that 0.5 mil. You know, if there's a fill size that works better for you, that's kind of all I need to know is like, hey, I want this much fill size, and I want this many total vials. And then, you know, here's my drugs. And then from there, I can do everything to get that quoted. Okay. Cool. 19:09 - Erin Kirby (Orion Laboratories | Baton Rouge LA) Did you tell me about what the expiration date would be? 19:15 - Andrew Hartmann (UTAK Laboratories) Oral fluid is going to be a one-year maximum. Urine, we typically have a better expiration. So urine looks like almost all of the drugs in urine are about 25 days. There are a couple that are 14-day. And then shelf life of the urine would be 18 months. I would anticipate similar thawed stability from the oral fluid around 25 days for most drugs, 14 for some of the others. And then a one-year expiration is what I would expect to see on oral fluid. Okay. 19:50 - Erin Kirby (Orion Laboratories | Baton Rouge LA) And then storing it frozen, does it matter if it's, like, would a minus 80 make it last longer? Is that encouraged, discouraged? through that situation. you. 20:00 - Andrew Hartmann (UTAK Laboratories) All I can formally tell you is at or below negative 10. What I can tell you anecdotally is customers tell us that, you know, the colder they store our products, the longer they tend to last. But we don't have stability data that differentiates between, like, negative 10 and negative 80. So, like, I can't make a claim or tell you that one is better than the other. All I can kind of tell you is, in general, people tell us the colder, the better it is. I don't know. Is that your experience, or have you seen differently? Yeah. 20:31 - Erin Kirby (Orion Laboratories | Baton Rouge LA) There are some drugs that don't behave well super cold. Like, for whatever reason, 6-MAM degrades the colder it is. And 7-aminoponazepam also shows degradation in colder temperatures. I don't know why, but it's something that I've seen. So, I don't know. 20:57 - Andrew Hartmann (UTAK Laboratories) I've definitely heard similar. I know we have a... A very large customer of ours that uses these, like, self-defrosting freezers or something that ruins their QC because it warms up in order to thaw. Yes, yeah, And they can't seem to get their company to buy another freezer despite this. And it's just like, oh, how does this keep happening? 21:21 - Erin Kirby (Orion Laboratories | Baton Rouge LA) So should you talk to them again, you can get one from Home Depot that does not self-defrost, that stays below 20. So, just throwing that out there, I've done that in the past, and they're, like, less than 800, so not ours have, like, every fridge and freezer we have has a remote temperature probe in it. 21:41 - Andrew Hartmann (UTAK Laboratories) If there's any, like, excursion, my boss has had to get up at 1 in the morning and drive into the facility and, like, move stuff from one freezer to another because it's at, like, 7, you know. It's still below freezing, but it's not where we need it for our temperature things. And until we can get the maintenance techs in there, it's, like... We have a whole protocol of, you know, these are the people that come in whenever the alarm goes off. These are the backups. This is where you move everything. We've got, like, a huge diesel generator in the back now. And, you know, so we're fully set up for temp monitoring. But I think each lab is a little bit different. You know, I don't know that a lot of lads have live temp probes and all of that stuff in their freezers like we do, but. 22:25 - Erin Kirby (Orion Laboratories | Baton Rouge LA) It's important. It makes a big difference. Oh, every audit. 22:29 - Andrew Hartmann (UTAK Laboratories) They, they want to look at those. They want to see all of our climate records. They want to see the maintenance on it. It's, you know, from a manufacturing standpoint, that temperature control is, is huge. Yeah. 22:43 - Erin Kirby (Orion Laboratories | Baton Rouge LA) Cool. Well, um, I will send you an email over whenever I get that all together, uh, and then check back in with you, uh, or I'll wait to hear back from you. Does that sound good? Awesome. 22:58 - Andrew Hartmann (UTAK Laboratories) Okay. Uh, yeah. 23:00 - Erin Kirby (Orion Laboratories | Baton Rouge LA) Not next week, but the week after, I'll be on vacation. So I'll be back the week of the holiday, which most people won't be working during that time, but I'll be here. 23:12 - Andrew Hartmann (UTAK Laboratories) We do shut down for about a week and a half at the end of the year. So I think from Christmas Eve on, we are out of office until like January 2nd or something like that. But if you can give me the panel before you leave, you know, we should definitely have the updated quote back to you and, you know, can kind of go from there. Awesome. 23:33 - Erin Kirby (Orion Laboratories | Baton Rouge LA) Well, then I guess I'll probably see your face next year. Sounds good. Well, it was lovely catching up. 23:40 - Andrew Hartmann (UTAK Laboratories) Thanks so much. Yeah, have a good one. You too. Bye-bye. Bye. Bye.