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Corey Koike - November 20 VIEW RECORDING - 30 mins (No highlights): https://fathom.video/share/FK_XaYGo7XCK7odfs8A6_GytFHZy-L32 --- 0:00 - Corey (Military Health) Hi, fine. Can you hear me? I can. Can you hear me? Yes, I can. I can hear you just fine. Lovely. Are you in Hawaii? 0:10 - Andrew Hartmann (UTAK Laboratories) Am I seeing that right? Yes. 0:12 - Corey (Military Health) Man, I dropped the ball. We should have made this an in-person meeting. It's like 40 degrees and raining outside. It's like, it's 70-something, but I'm wearing a jacket because it's cold for a year. 0:23 - Andrew Hartmann (UTAK Laboratories) You know, when I first moved out to Los Angeles, my first winter there, I remember wearing shorts and T-shirts, and it was all great. By my second winter, like, 75 was hoodie and beanie weather, and I moved to Missouri now, which was a terrible mistake weather-wise. 0:39 - Corey (Military Health) Oh, gosh. 0:41 - Andrew Hartmann (UTAK Laboratories) How long have you been with Tripler? 0:43 - Corey (Military Health) I have been, actually, I've been here at the, let me turn my camera on. I've been here at the drug lab for about five years, but I've been at the Tripler Hospital. So for a total of, I was at the hospital side doing clinical for over 13 years. So I've spent most of my, I've spent most of my tech life doing clinical and I've moved over to the dark side of forensic science for only the last five years or so. So it's a different, it's a different can of worms. If I have, I'm really getting ready for retirement. So most of my career has been in the clinical side and only recently have I dabbled in the forensic and I thought the slide was going to be no problem. But, um, forensic is a different, it's a different world, um, than what. We, what we did in clinical. Everything was very, very exact. What's the difference for forensics with you? 2:08 - Andrew Hartmann (UTAK Laboratories) Is it like, is forensics just the drug testing, or is this like specifically law-related, or? 2:13 - Corey (Military Health) No, no, it's not law-related. Well, it's kind of law-related. We, what, what, what our primary duty is to test the military member samples, uh, urine samples, to make sure that they're not doing illicit drugs. Okay. we have, um, it, unlike clinical, we have people's livelihoods instead of their lives in our hands. You see that? Because if you mostly accuse somebody of, um, doing something bad that they weren't actually doing, um, it can have huge ramifications as far as their careers, and their livelihood, and their families, and all that kind of stuff. So we actually have more people working here in the lab, making sure that we get the results right, than actually getting the results. And your urine plays a big part in that. We use the UTAK negative urine as our media to make all of our LCMS controls and calibrators. We make them in-house, and the reason why we make them in-house is that the specifications that we make them to certify a lot are a lot more strict than what a manufacturer would be able to, or if we had asked a company to make it, and we told them our specifications, they would charge us through the UHA to make it that tight. You know what I mean? What is your acceptance criteria? Is it like a 5% or 10%? Yeah, it's a 10%, whereas, you know, commercially available is a lot of times it's 20-25%, and then the labs themselves run their own controls to come up with their own control range, yeah? So our certification is a plus or minus 10% from the theoretical, and that's what we have to adhere to. We make some of our lots are big as 20-liter lots, and some of them are as small as 500 mils and stuff like that, but because our immunoassay, we We go through a lot more stuff, you know, there's sample size, and as a consequence, the amount of controls and calibrators that we have to use those screening instruments are at a larger volume, you know, like a lot of the commercially available controls and calibrators come in, you know, a five mil little dropper bottle and stuff like that. So we use a lot of stuff. So for the cost of everything and our certification things, we tend to make almost all of our stuff in-house. 5:48 - Andrew Hartmann (UTAK Laboratories) That's interesting, because you're definitely right about, like, acceptance criteria. Like, ours is generally plus or minus 25% from Target. Yeah. That's because, like, as a, you know, truly independent QC, you send it out to 10 different... You get 10 different numbers back, you know. 6:02 - Corey (Military Health) So it's kind of harder. 6:04 - Andrew Hartmann (UTAK Laboratories) But we do also sometimes do what we call like an in-process sample. It depends on the analytes that are actually present, you know, whether there's known stability issues or not. But we can actually like make a product, send you a sample, have you test it and say, hey, this, you know, analyte needs to increase, this one needs to decrease, and then we can manipulate it to, you know, sometimes get those tighter ranges. I know on a smaller volume order, we're not going to be able to guarantee like a 25%. But if you have a 20 liter, you know, lot, you know, when we're making that much, getting into those ranges becomes easier for us. So we could potentially explore doing a custom lot if you'd want to take a look at what price it is, you know, for something of that high of a volume. 6:48 - Corey (Military Health) I'm not so much looking at that, but what I'm actually looking at is the military has five forensic labs throughout the Throughout the nation, and we're all separated geographically, and they make us do what is a proficiency sample, and we do this monthly for all the analytes that we test for, but unlike a CAP proficiency survey, we have an N of 5, which is such a small number, And I can't participate in the CAP surveys, because the way that the CAP surveys are set up is, they do like a mass spec, and they test for like a whole slew of drugs, some of which we actually test for in-house, and some of which we don't. So we would kind of, every, every, Every, you know, you only get the CEP samples four times a year, sometimes we would hit the drugs that we actually need to and sometimes we don't. So I'm looking at somehow finding a way that we can participate in some kind of survey or something like that, that we can participate with more people than just the five labs. involved in the, in, in, in our military labs. know that throughout the nation, there's a, a buttload of forensic labs, but the military part that we participate in is like a small part. So I don't know if, I don't know if, um, you know, instead of, you see where I'm going, I'm looking for samples to test to see. Yes. are things. Thank 9:00 - Andrew Hartmann (UTAK Laboratories) So we dabble in the space, but I don't know that for what you're looking for, we wouldn't necessarily be the best. So kind of what we offer is sort of two paths forward. So we could make a custom product for, you know, your five military labs with just the drugs you guys want and just in like the concentrations you wanted. You know, so like that way you're just getting samples. 9:23 - Corey (Military Health) wouldn't than five, you know what I mean? Yeah. You know, like, you know, when you participate in the CEP samples, when you get a group mean, you know that it's a solid group mean because there's high labs, there's low labs, and everybody's thrown in together. But as a conglomerate, you've got a good thing, whereas if you have an end of just five labs, you got one out in left field, it throws off everybody, and you, you, you, it's statistically not. Um. You're not able to get a real solid group meeting just from it, you know, but that's all we have to deal with, so that's what we work with monthly. 10:16 - Andrew Hartmann (UTAK Laboratories) The other thing that we do is we work kind of behind the scenes with some consulting companies that do these kinds of things, but then you're sort of at the mercy of, you know, what analytes they want to put together into their panels. So, like, I don't know if you've ever reached out to, but there's, like, Lighthouse Lab Services, there's Drug Test Program Management, there's In-House Labs, you know, there's kind of a variety of smaller companies that, you know, they facilitate the samples being sent, they do the math to get you the means, all that kind of stuff, but, like, we don't directly participate in that. They tell us what the material needs to have, we just make the material and then, you know, send it to them, and then they find their own customer base. 10:59 - Corey (Military Health) They say, 11:00 - Andrew Hartmann (UTAK Laboratories) Deladon, that kind of stuff. So I could refer you on to them, but as far as like what we could offer, it would pretty much be making something for your five labs. Or the other thing we see a lot of labs doing is we do blind samples. So you give us your panel and what your clinical ranges are. Say, know, hey, here's the 50 drugs I want in each of these drugs. Here's what I test. And then we'll make three, four, five different products. We don't tell you initially what's in each product or what concentration those analytes are in. You get that material, you run it, get your values, and then reach out to us and we send you the documentation that shows you like what we put into each product and what concentration. 11:43 - Corey (Military Health) Oh, that's interesting. Yeah, yeah. 11:45 - Andrew Hartmann (UTAK Laboratories) But, you know, it's like if you did something like that across the five labs, you know, again, it's not a huge, huge number of labs, but, you know, having it being blind like that and that kind of stuff might at least give you guys some indication if you guys are close or far off. 12:01 - Corey (Military Health) So as I sent in my email, our wants and needs are few, but they're persnickety. We have a $10,000 limit on our credit cards. And so when we purchase something, we have to purchase the actual P, which we want We want to as one lot, and then include shipping, which, whew, I think we pay as much for shipping as we do for the actual product. You know, it's pretty high right now, the shipping charges. And then, so I kind of would like to use your product more, but then I would have to. Do multiple purchases. And each purchase from your company usually is a different lot of UTAK. And because we have to run a validation on all our negative urine, it's a lot of work to test a lot. I have to run it through all of our immunoassay, LC-MS, and GC-MS tests. So to validate a lot, I have like maybe about 14 batches of different stuff that go through for one lot. So you can see that I don't want to have to do it multiple times with a whole bunch of different lots. Definitely. 13:52 - Andrew Hartmann (UTAK Laboratories) When you're validating a new lot, how many ml of material, ballpark, do you need to do that validation? 13:59 - Corey (Military Health) I don't need. that very much, especially- Would 10 ml be enough? Not for everything that I have to do. I think I could do it for 20 mils, but one of the main reasons why we don't use UTAK for everything is, number one, the purchasing constraints that we have, that with your company, like another year-in that we use is Microgenics. And what they do is, we actually have a contract with them. And so we have a contract for one fiscal year. We have two separate shipments, but they hold that same lot in their storage facility for us, so that they ship it to us twice a year. And the reason why they have to do it that way is it We don't have enough room in our refrigerator to store everything that we need for the whole year, but they sequester one lot for us, and we get that same lot shipped to us twice, whereas when we've tried to ask that with UTAK, you guys say, every purchase is a different lot. And so that was one issue, and the fact that we couldn't use UTAK exclusively because, I don't know, for one reason or another, UTAK, our IA system, our immunoassay system, sometimes has some amphetamine interference going on in there, that, that, um, you guys You read a little bit higher than what our negatives should be, and so we don't use UTAK. And I believe that almost all of the military labs use UTAK, and some of them actually get around that by doing a 1-3 dilution versus the 1-2 dilution that we have going with your urine. And the reason why we don't use it straight is that at a straight thing, we have too much interference with too many of our tests that we do. 16:44 - Andrew Hartmann (UTAK Laboratories) And if I understood your email correctly, like some lots are fine and you don't have issue, and other lots you do have issue. 16:51 - Corey (Military Health) Is that correct? Yes. But we don't know until we get the shipment, and so, so, you know, um. Yeah. I don't want to buy like $10,000 worth and find out we can't use it. 17:05 - Andrew Hartmann (UTAK Laboratories) No, I totally get that. So I'm kind of hearing there's like two big issues. One is the amino assay and some lots work, some lots don't. And then the other is like the purchasing constraints and getting a different lot each shipment. Yes, exactly. 17:20 - Corey (Military Health) So I think we do have solutions to both of those. 17:25 - Andrew Hartmann (UTAK Laboratories) So for the amino assay issue, right away my thoughts are is we change your ordering process because right now you guys order and we just ship you the lots in full without you guys ever trying them. We do offer a program called a matrix sample program. So the way that works is you place the order for the full amount of urine that you want, and then you request a matrix sample at the same time when you're placing that order. And so what that triggers us to do is instead of sending you, you know, all of the gallons at once, typically our sample is 10 gallon or sorry, 10. But I can up it to a 20 ml if we do a, you if you work through me. And then we would send you that 20 ml sample. You test that lot. If everything is good, you approve it. And then we ship you the full bottles. If for whatever reason, something is not working for you, you reject that lot. And then we're going to send you a sample of a new lot until we find a lot that works for you. So I think right there, that's an easy win in our system. And, you know, it isn't difficult for us. It's just next time you order, you'll just need to connect with me because we'll have to do it on like a formal quote and just make sure we capture that you need 20 ml and not 10. And just kind of some details on the back end for our process to make sure it works smoothly for you. But I think switching your order to that matrix sample process is going to be a benefit for you. And we don't add any additional cost for it because we totally understand, you know, a lab buying in bulk like you. We want to make sure that, you know, all those gallons work for all of your tests. 18:59 - Corey (Military Health) And then when it comes to. Purchasing constraints. 19:01 - Andrew Hartmann (UTAK Laboratories) I've seen a couple of different things with our military contracts or our different government contracts. How far apart do your orders have to be spaced from like a credit card payment perspective? Is it like just one or two days and you could place like two credit card orders or what are your requirements? 19:20 - Corey (Military Health) So our purchasing guys look at us under a microscope. So what you're proposing, doing it a couple of days apart, is considered a split purchase, which people can get into really big trouble for. Okay. So our credit card maximums are $10,000 and they're not supposed to be recurring, which prevents us from, quote, a purchase. Okay. Now, totally understand. Like, we don't want to get anybody in any trouble. Yeah. And so... We normally space our, in fact, now that it's not optimal, but I buy two types of urine just to get around that. And so UTAK, we're only buying from you guys once a year. 20:21 - Andrew Hartmann (UTAK Laboratories) The sequestering like Microgenics is doing, that is something, that's not necessarily completely off the table for UTAK. Yeah, but how long is your shelf life? 20:37 - Corey (Military Health) It's like almost a year, but not quite sometimes. It's 14 months from the date of manufacturing. 20:45 - Andrew Hartmann (UTAK Laboratories) So it kind of depends like when the order is placed in the lot. But we could probably work out something. I would just, I need to get approval because it would be a deviation from our normal process. Because we do a lot of this. Sequestering for our other customers, but typically when we do that, we request payment up front for the full amount, and then we are willing to ship whenever you want that shipment. But understanding your needs, I might be able to get our company to, like, in good faith, you know, sequester that for you without being prepaid and hold it for your next order. Again, I wouldn't be able to do that on this call. I'm going to need to, you know, get from you, like, how much total quantity would you want for the year. But if I structure it right, I think we could get you a lot that would guarantee at least, like, 12-month expiration. We could send you that sample first to have you try it out, and then if I can get it approved, you know, we do have the ability to sequester. It's just, it would be a change in our process, so I'd have to see if our team would be on board for that. 21:49 - Corey (Military Health) Would this matrix sample program testing be available even if we order just one time a year at $10,000 for one lot? I'll That would be super awesome. 22:05 - Andrew Hartmann (UTAK Laboratories) Yeah, and I think no matter what we do, that change we should implement because that's not going to cost you extra. The only cost for you is a little bit more time. You know, you got to get the sample first, test that, and then once that's approved, then we ship it. So, you know, if you need the year and tomorrow, that's not the right process. 22:20 - Corey (Military Health) But if you're looking ahead, we could definitely do that. I'm going to have to place a UTAK order pretty soon because the current lot that we have right now expires in June of 2026. And I'm going to have to place it sometime, like, you know, in January or something to get a new lot in. You want that new order placed in January? Probably. Right now, just between you and me, sir, ordering is a cluster. ... ... I mean, with the shutdown and everything. with the shutdown and stuff, I mean, I'm thankful that I finally got a paycheck, but it was a little rough going, and the purchasing venue is a little bit, we're still waiting to get funding so that we can even place a order for a ballpoint pen right now. So, yeah, and then we're trying to place this order, and then God knows what's going to happen in January, because that's when the money is supposed to run out again. So, yeah, being a federal worker is not that fun right now. 23:45 - Andrew Hartmann (UTAK Laboratories) No, our dog sitter actually was, and she's like, oh, I'm available all day now, because I don't know when I get to go back to work, you know, just like that. 23:53 - Corey (Military Health) Yeah. My husband is a federal employee, too, so we have no money coming into our household. Man, I can't. As much as I love America, sometimes I just can't believe the thing we do to our people. I know. It was okay. I had stuff to grumble about, but I didn't have stuff to worry about. It was just a pain in the butt. I can imagine. Well, I'm so glad to have talked to you because this is, like, mind-blowing, all kind of stuff that's available. This Matrix Sample Program would be, like, awesome because it's an immunoassay mainly that has these little cross-reactivity once in a while. You're not alone in that. 24:47 - Andrew Hartmann (UTAK Laboratories) We see that kind of across our customer base, which is why we offer this. It's rare we see it in urine. More often, it's, like, blood that we see it in, but we do have some customers that, you know, kind of consistently run into some lot. Lots work, some lots don't for the year as well. So, our quotes are going to be good for 90 days, and so if you're planning on ordering in January, when we get off this call, I'll go ahead and submit a request to our team. What I'll do is I'll have them, you know, kind of put the maximum amount of gallons that we can fit with shipping charges under 10,000, and then I'll also have them add that 20 ml matrix sample. So, when you order, you'll use that quote to order, and that will trigger our team to, like, send that sample and be that change in process that we talked about. 25:33 - Corey (Military Health) that'll be great, because when we start getting our funding set up, I'm going to have to get everything lined up, because the freight car came to a complete halt, and it takes a while for the, to get wrong. 25:49 - Andrew Hartmann (UTAK Laboratories) If I quote you now, I think I can lock in 2025 pricing, even if you place the order in January, so I'll work with our team on that, too, just to try to get you guys the best value. Okay, that sounds fantastic. More of an outside-the-box kind of question, but I do know some of our government, you know, areas that we work with, we also have some other distribution partners, like we work with Government Scientific Source, we work with Thermo Fisher, you know, some of those other companies that governments purchase through, where they are in a, you know, because of like Government Scientific Source, the way they sign up and register, they're able to spend more than like $10,000 in a single go. I don't know if that might be something you'd want to work, you know, look into, but if it is, I can put us in contact with one of our, you know, contacts over like Government Scientific Source, and you could look at potentially ordering it through them, because they just know a lot more about like getting through all the hoops and ladders and stuff the government puts up. So that's kind of also another, another path we could take if you wanted to look at like QC or higher volume orders or anything like that. 26:52 - Corey (Military Health) I know that at one time we did have a purchasing venue called... A blanket purchase agreement with the government scientific source, and we bought all kind of stuff from them, not just the UTAK, not just, I think that's what we used to buy microgenics urine before, but some other stuff. And it did allow us to skirt around that $10,000 limit and allow us to make a bigger purchase that would really, hmm, okay, I'll start asking our purchasing agent about that. Awesome. But being able to get this matrix sample test, that would be like, you know, and now that I think about it, because the immunoassay gives us the biggest part, all we have to do is run it through the immunoassay, and 10 mils would be enough to just run. Run that. So I don't need a 20 mil sample for that. Well, that certainly makes it easier to fit into our process. Yeah. Okay. That would be fantastic. Yeah. If you could send me a quote, $10,000 max, including shipping, that would really help me. Yeah. Perfect. Yeah. 28:25 - Andrew Hartmann (UTAK Laboratories) That is easy for me. So I'll get that submitted. And then I'm going to be out of office tomorrow. So it'll probably be kind of early next week. I get it to you. But if you're not ordering until January anyway, I don't think there's much urgency there. 28:36 - Corey (Military Health) Oh, Andrew, thank you so much for reaching out to me. Yeah. I'm so glad we got to connect. Yeah. Okay. 28:43 - Andrew Hartmann (UTAK Laboratories) when you send that order, you should really request, like, we insist hand delivery from Andrew. And we'll just see what happens, you know. 28:51 - Corey (Military Health) At the price FedEx charges, that might be about the price of a one-way plane ticket. I just don't know how they would think about me carrying all that urine on. That's what I was just going to say. You guys charge so much for freight. It might be. I wish I could say it was us and we're putting it in our pocket and getting rich over here. But our shipping charge is actually just what FedEx charges us. We don't tack on an extra amount. It's just the darn weight of the whole thing. Okay. Thank you, Andrew. Yeah. Thank you. I'll be in touch. Okay. Thank you. Okay. Bye. Bye. 29:34 - Andrew Hartmann (UTAK Laboratories) Bye.